If you follow me on Facebook (and you should), you know that I spent Thursday and Friday wandering around Utah in this shirt:
I figured Mormons understand evangelization and wouldn’t be offended by my offer of dialogue–but I ran it by some LDS friend first to be sure. They thought people would be far more curious than offended, so off I went. When I got to Temple Square on Thursday afternoon, I went straight to the visitors’ center to ask for a tour. But I’m not a jerk, so I told the missionary there who I am:
“Just so you know, I’m a Catholic missionary. I don’t want to step on any toes but I’ve got some pretty deep questions that I haven’t been able to find answers to in my research.”
Every time I met a different missionary, I told her something along these lines–I didn’t want anyone to feel ambushed when I started asking for answers beyond the basics. Unfortunately, anything beyond the basics was met with confusion. One missionary told me she was a polytheist, another said she definitely wasn’t. They didn’t know if their Prophet was infallible and didn’t want to say if Heavenly Father had a father. They didn’t know the formula for baptism and were pretty sure they don’t pray to Jesus. It didn’t take long for me to realize that I wasn’t going to get my confusion about Mormon doctrine resolved here.
But let’s be fair: how many 20-year-old Catholics could answer hard questions like that? I would hope that the ones who are in full-time ministry would have a grasp on theology, but if mission work is pretty much expected, as it is in the LDS church, there’s no guarantee of any theological sophistication in any given missionary. And I think they were told not to answer complex questions, which actually makes a lot of sense to me. Mormon theology can sound pretty crazy–as can any theology if you’re not used to it; after all, I worship a cracker. And these ladies aren’t just random Mormon girls trying to answer a question–they’re wearing name tags, which makes them authorities in the eyes of the world. So if they try to answer one of the harder questions and mess it up hardcore, they just further the stereotype of crazy Mormons.
Rather than give a wrong (or even unclear) answer, they just don’t touch the tough stuff. I can understand. And I didn’t go there to destroy anyone’s faith, so I admired the landscaping, listened to their heartfelt testimonies, talked about how faith makes trials bearable, rejoiced in our mutual love of the Lord, collected my free Book of Mormon, and moved on.
The next hour wandering Temple Square elicited no questions except from one Protestant (about whom more another time). So home I went, hoping for a busier day at BYU on Friday.
After my uninformative evening at Temple Square, I figured my best bet would be to approach a theology professor at BYU–surely those guys would have answers. And friends, I was not disappointed. My hosts had recommended that I speak with their neighbor, Alonzo Gaskill, a Mormon professor of World Religions and convert from Greek Orthodoxy. From the moment he opened the door, I was blown away.
Seriously, this guy is one of my favorite people I’ve met all year. He spent three hours–THREE HOURS–answering all of my questions and asking all about me and sharing his testimony and offering to pray for me and even–after THREE HOURS of helping me understand Mormonism–making a donation to my ministry. Really, a prince among men.
But I wouldn’t recommend that any of you talk to him. Because Prof. Gaskill is really convincing. I mean, I think I emerged fairly unscathed (although you can always pray for my faith and perseverance), but this guy absolutely obliterated the stereotpye that Mormonism is irrational or incoherent. He was using Scripture and the Fathers and doing a fantastic job. And he was kind and reasonable and interested in answering my actual question, not the question he wanted to answer. He wanted my opinions on things and appreciated it when I corrected his understanding of Catholicism. He clearly respects the Catholic Church and respected me as a Catholic and as an intellectual. Maybe one day I’ll write something for y’all about Mormonism but for now suffice it to say that it’s a lot closer to orthodox Christianity than I ever thought possible but that I’m still not convinced.1
Coming off of that high, I went back out on campus. I’d wandered for an hour earlier, feeling super-awkward and in-your-face in my shirt, but nobody had approached me. This time, I tried standing by a bench praying a rosary. I think it was pretty clear that I was waiting for people and this time I had a little more luck: four conversations in two hours.
Interestingly, only one person actually had a question. She wanted to know what rosary beads were, so I explained the rosary and the mysteries and how it’s a Christocentric prayer. She was very attentive and after we talked about her life a little bit, she headed home.
The other three conversations were just young men who were trying to be nice. One guy came up to me just because he could tell I wanted to talk to someone so we talked for a while about his life and being a person of faith. I had a similar conversation with another young man who told me that he had stopped because “it’s always good to see someone who takes their faith seriously.”
One young man stopped to chat. When I asked if he had any questions about the Catholic faith, he thought for a minute. “I don’t really know much about it, so…I guess, tell me about Catholicism.” Talk about a broad question! I ended up talking about the Eucharist since I figured trying to explain the differences in our understanding of God would be a bit much. Again, very polite and attentive but I wasn’t trying to convince him, really, and he wasn’t interested in being convinced. So eventually, he moved on, too.
All in all, I had a great afternoon at BYU. I was a bit taken aback by the guy who was doing a magic trick that required girls to kiss him–at BYU, of all places–but the marriage proposal I witnessed later on more than made up for it. I got a few quick greetings and a number of smiles–gotta love friendly Mormons. Nobody was rude to me; even the guy who asked, “Are you really a Catholic?” was being friendly in an odd kind of way. And while I didn’t “accomplish” much while standing around waiting to answer questions people didn’t ask, it was a beautiful day with pleasant people and who knows what the Lord is doing in people’s hearts? I don’t at all expect that people saw my shirt, went home to start Googling, and will be joining RCIA in the fall. But if one person who saw me becomes a better Mormon because of it, it was time well spent.
Next up: Sin City with St. Paul Street Evangelization! Come, Holy Spirit.
- Among other reasons: “the gates of hell will not prevail against [the Church]” but it was completely wrong for 1700 years; no first cause; no Real Presence; the King James Version; I’m not convinced by Joseph Smith or his testimony; eternal marriage strikes me as unbiblical; I believe in Ecumenical Councils; I think the Trinity and the Godhead are two completely different concepts and that oneness in being and oneness in purpose are not the same thing; I don’t think the Father was ever human. But man they’re good at families and community and evangelization and modest fashion and just being really good people. [↩]
If i could have been a fly on that wall!!! You have done what i have always wanted to do…one day we will have to chat so you can share your newfound knowledge! Blessings to you!!!
The question I would ask a knowledgeable Mormon is, why, with all of the clear historical evidence that Joseph Smith was something akin to a con artist and that only he actually saw the golden plates of the Book of Mormon (not to mention, there is ZERO archaeological evidence backing up the events in the Book of Mormon), is it reasonable to trust his witness? Because that is what everything in Mormon thought and practice is based on. Within itself, Mormonism might make some sense, but if you go to the core of the issue, which is witness (same thing goes with Christianity), then (it seems to me) everything falls apart.
Regardless, it sounds like a GREAT experience and I would have loved to be there (duh). 🙂 I highly recommend that you read “One Nation Under Gods,” which is a historical look at the development of the LDS and goes into Joseph Smith’s early life in a way that really, REALLY calls into question the foundations of the LDS.
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Actually at least 13 other people saw the Book of Mormon plates. & saw the book from Joseph himself. 3 were shown the plates by an angel. These two accounts are published in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. And there are 3 more separate accounts of people who saw the plates in personal journals.
And reading “One Nation Under Gods” and claiming it as historically valid is like reading John Calvin for an objective view of Catholicism and the veracity of Catholic teaching.
So. So. Cool!! I’m impressed with your lack of timidity. You go, girl!
Sounds like a wonderful experience for all involved! Keep going sweet Meg, and God be with you!
My Mormon neighbors growing up made me a better Catholic. When I started digging into what Mormons believed, I also started digging into my Catholic faith and what we believe, so I was able to both ask and answer questions. They had 7 girls. Now today with my 5 little “stair step” kids I get the question “are you Mormon or Catholic?” I wonder how my non-denominational Christian friends with 9 children feel about this question?
It was a delight having you with us, Meg. Your experience of Alonzo mirrors my own… he has a powerful mind, but more important, a powerful Spirit. Best to you in your peregrinations!
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Meg, I am thrilled to hear you were able to talk to Dr. Gaskill. He is a wonderful scholar and a true disciple of Christ. At BYU, I would have also recommended either Drs. Kent Brooks or Bob Millet, both accomplished but humble theologians of our Latter-day Saint (Mormon faith).
You were definitely told the the right person to ask. Alonzo Gaskill is an amazing person. I’ve known him for years and he’s always come across that way – even as a young college student! 🙂
So curious about your conversation with the professor since I have many questions about Mormonism as well!
That’s awesome! What great stories…and I LOVE the shirt, wondering where I can get one too 🙂
The Catholic center at the University of Kansas 🙂 I want one that says the same thing (or maybe “How can I pray for you?”) on the front and has bigger text on the back, but it’s SO EXPENSIVE to have just one t-shirt made. Every once in a while I look at every custom t-shirt company on the internet to see if I can find something reasonable. If I ever find something, I’ll let you know!
i used to talk to the mormon missionaries at my university in indiana and had similar experiences – they have no idea what they believe. i could tell they had personal relationships with Jesus…but that was about it. my favorite was i asked one of the mormons if he thought his church was the true church because the Catholic church claims to be the true church. his reply was he prayed over the book of mormon and knew it was true. he suggested i try that too – i countered by saying what if i prayed and came to the conclusion the RCC was true – then my church would be true too? he conceded he guessed so. haha.
another goodie – asked if they believed in a triune God. one said no and the other said they believe in the father, son, and holy ghost.
i take comfort knowing FOCUS missionaries are well catechized and know their faith before they go out on campuses!
Hi Meg!
I know this is an older blog post, but I just read it as it got posted on reddit at /r/latterdaysaints. We appreciate all people who have a strong faith in God and Christ and are open about their religion in a positive way. We try to do the same, and know it can be difficult. So bravo!
I just had one thought as I was reading your blog post, and just so you know, I am in no way an official spokesman for my faith, just a believing member. Anyway, the thing that struck me was that it may not have been the doctrine you were discussing that confused the young missionaries, but rather the language. When I was a new missionary I had a hard time communicating with people in THEIR religious language, though we all spoke English. They had words and phrases and concepts that were very clearly defined in their religious culture, and we have ours. Sometimes they are not clear to one another, and that can cause confusion and misunderstandings. As I learned more about other religions and THEIR religious language, I was better able to express myself clearly. This is probably why Prof. Gaskill was able to explain things to you, he has (I assume, as I do not know him) had enough exposure to Catholic doctrine and history that he was able to explain what we all believe in a language that made sense to you. And that’s great. I’d be a bit careful though, as commenter “Liz” mentioned, in assuming that Mormon missionaries don’t know their OWN religion, as much as they don’t yet understand how to convey that knowledge in a common religious language. It’s a tough art to master.
Also, the questions that you had about Mormonism are obviously important to you, but they aren’t necessarily ones that we worry about too much, which is why you may have gotten some blank stares. While we talk about the “Nature of God” and “The Godhead” and have a whole body of work on who God is and His relationship with Christ and the Holy Spirit, I don’t think I’ve ever heard the word “Polytheism” in a Sunday School lesson. Nor is any Mormon I know even really aware that our beliefs may be misunderstood as polytheism to others, or the theological implications of that word in others’ eyes. Obviously we don’t see ourselves as polytheistic by believing in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, any more than you do by believing in those same beings. I assume that in your mind, God having three distinct persons, but being one in nature, doesn’t make you a polytheist in your eyes. As well, Mormons don’t believe that the Godhead being composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit makes us polytheists either. But again, this may get lost in the translation of religious language. And, missionaries or lay members who may not understand the implications of what you’re asking may answer a question in a way they think makes sense in YOUR religious language, but that implies something completely different to you.
Religions – all of them – have very complex theologies that are hard for the lay member to completely grasp and explain articulately at a moment’s notice, and yet their faith is still very real and still very important to them. Just as you will likely approach many Mormons who don’t understand their own religion beyond the basics, I approached many Catholics who knew little about Catholicism. If only we were all so lucky to be able to spend our whole lives studying God and the doctrines of our faith! But, most of us have to work for a living, so we do what we can in the time we have.
I applaud your efforts to open the conversation, and invite you to continue approaching your Mormon neighbors about our common beliefs. I think we all have a thing or two to learn from one another!
P.S. To commenter Christina Grace: I assume you’ll never read this, but I’d like to answer your question. First, however, I’d like you to consider how you would approach this question, substituting our beliefs for yours, “With all of the clear historical evidence that Christ was just a good man and that he just taught some good things (not to mention, there is ZERO archaeological evidence backing up the events in the Bible), is it reasonable to trust in Him?”
I can already feel your blood start to boil! “Preposterous!” you might say! There are plenty of scholars who spit out terrible things about Christianity and the Bible, and widely-read books are printed every year that “prove” that Christ was nothing more than a philosopher at best, and a con-artist at worst. These things go against everything we believe as Christians, and though we have our own scholars who publish books backing up the validity of Christ, there are still people who will say things like that about Christ. I approach them at work all the time and have to defend Christianity from some of the most ridiculous, baseless, and frustrating attacks.
And so it goes with Joseph Smith. I believe he was a Prophet of God who powerfully testified of Christ. I believe much of the “scholarship” on the subject that asserts he was a con-artist has been poisoned by personal vendettas and evil intentions, just as you and I may assume about someone writing a book using sources that “prove” Christ was not God. If all you read about Joseph Smith are those things that are written against him, it’s just like declaring Christ was not real after reading some assault on Christianity and never having tried to read the Bible or discover Christ for yourself.
As far as the Book of Mormon, we encounter the same issues that all Christians face from detractors of the Bible. “There’s no archaeological evidence for the Jews in Egypt,” “There’s no archaeological evidence of the Tower of Babel,” “There’s no evidence of the Garden of Eden.” We might respond that there is PLENTY of archaeological evidence that the events in the Bible occurred as they said they did, but of course there’s not evidence of EVERY event in the Bible, nor should we expect there to be, as there is NO culture that has even a majority of its events preserved and discovered by archaeologists.
Likewise, with the Book of Mormon, we say there is PLENTY of archaeological evidence! There have been hundreds of books written that support the historicity of the Book of Mormon, but we don’t expect to find their names carved in stone. These God-fearing people of the Book of Mormon were a persecuted Christian minority in a much larger nation that eventually turned pagan or atheist and did everything they could to wipe the religious minority (and their texts and sacred buildings) from existence, which is why their premier religious text (their testament of Christ, known as the Book of Mormon) had to be buried in order to keep it from getting destroyed. We Mormons have no problem believing in Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon because of all the evidence FOR it, in archaeology, in the Bible, in early Christianity, and most importantly through the witness of the Holy Spirit. I’m not trying to sell you on our beliefs necessarily, but it is important to understand that nearly all the baseless attacks that Christians defend themselves against from non-Christians are the same ones we as Mormons have to fight.
I love my faith Christina, and it sounds like you love yours. A common understanding, as Meg has been advocating here, is the best route for all of us. Keep an open mind about us, you might be surprised at what you discover. God bless!
Full Disclosure: I am Mormon. I have served a mission, and was at one point one of those confused missionaries you mention.
That said I am interested in why you don’t believe that Eternal Marriage is biblical. I would love if you would send me your reasoning. You should have my email from this comment.
I have always been curious as to how different religions justify their faith. I have hared many of the reasons you give in your footnote, but not the marriage one. If it isn’t too much trouble I would be interested in hearing your thoughts, not to argue, just to know.
Paul
Mt.ch. 28, Mk.ch. 16:9-20, Lk. ch. 24, Jhn.ch. 20: 19-31. First of all, the resurrection, witnesses saw Him (Christ) being buried. The next day, the women that came to embalm the Body, found the tomb, that had been closed with a huge rock, was open. No Body, women witnessed this, and so did the apostles. There had been soldiers guarding the tomb, but none of them saw anything. No one ever found a body. They all witnessed Him after He rose from the dead…..Then He tells them in Mt.ch. 22: 23-33 the answer to your question. Catholic Bible, 2 thousand yrs. of history, never any changes to it’s
doctrines. Written by the people that lived with Jesus while He was on earth.
And all CHOSE to die rather than stop preaching what Jesus had taught them.
Joseph Smith did not believe in a triune God. If you do now that means your leaders have changed your doctrines. The catacombs are artifacts, the colossiums are artifacts, where the Christians were torn apart by the lions for not giving up their faith! They were martyred for 400 yrs. after Christ rose from the dead. And are still being martyred all over the world. There must be SOMETHING different about Christianity compared to Mormanism. It’s up to you to find out! God bless
Meg, I loved reading this post. Most of all I love your passion AND your respect for others. Thank you!
Alison Moore Smith recently posted…A Mormon Mother of Daughters Talks to a YSA Bishop About Intimacy
It was a long comment, I hit post twice by mistake. Can’t you retrieve my comment and post it for me?
Well, that’s one way of not getting the truth out there, just don’t post it!
Well, that’s one way of not getting the truth out there, just don’t let me post it!
You mean the one posted above?
Oh my goodness! It’s so refreshing to hear this take on Mormonism. I will admit that my opinions of the beliefs inherent within Mormon spirituality has never been high – something I’m glad to see challenged. Despite our differing beliefs, I hope to see unification of the Church, where all Christians are called to truth and beauty in oneness with God. <3
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